OneFastGSR's GSR

[OneFastGSR]

No picture updates, But I took the block to the machine shop wednesday, It's getting honed for new rings and hot tanked. The crank is also there getting micropolished. I should be getting it back mid week I'm thinking. Whenever I get it back I'm going to check all the clearances on the bearings and see what they all show up as to see what size bearings I need to get. Also got to order a new set of rings, Alot of gaskets, and alot of bolts! Should be sending my transmission off to texas next weekend also. Havn't 100% decided what i'm going to do to it so not going to post anything else about it yet. Lol

 

[OneFastGSR]

Got my parts back, They said before I got it hot tanked it'll be hard to get the red off so it might not all come off. In the end it turned out just how they said, I'm just going to tackle it with aircraft stripper and simple green etc see what I can do with it. Here's pics. The hone looks great. Crank looks perfect but I don't have pics of the crank. Also cleaned up my pistons and rods. Going to order some pistons rings and gaskets, bolts tomorrow.

 

[OneFastGSR]

No new pics but I have purchased a new set of cams, Crower 63403, Here are the specs. I was going to get skunk2 pro1's but I got these for $200 from a buddy at T1 and couldn't pass them up.

Honda / Acura - B16A, B17A & B18C
Performance level 5 - Stage 3 - Full Race, All Motor / Turbo - Drag Race and rough Street/Strip. Requires #84161 kit with modified revs.
INT/EXH - Dur @ .050” Lift: °/° RR: 1.55/1.55 Gross Lift: ”/” LSA: 100° RPM: 1200 to 9750 Redline: 10250

I been doing research on my piston rings, I am going to order a ARP piston ring compressor, Piston ring expander tool (No brand specific yet they all seem to be pretty much the same basic tool, any input)?, Piston ring filer, A rather cheap one that i've seen good reviews on is the Proform piston ring filer on summit racing. I'm in contact with real street performance atm and going to be purchasing new CP rings, Upgraded CP wrist pins, and new CP wrist pin locks.

Now then I been researching piston ring gaps. I was looking at a old thread on honda-tech that helped me alot to a certain point. I found a post on honda-tech muckman posted, and one he was commenting in and this is the information I got atm, Here's a pic muckman posted on honda-tech awhile back that shows how to do the ring gap from wiseco (I think I remember reading cp is the same). I got a 83mm bore, .0040" p2w clearence, Muckman posted 650+ whp you're going to want to use wiseco's Nitrous Race Only specs, So i'd take my bore 3.268 x .0070" for the upper ring and 3.268 x .0075" for the lower ring, Oil ring gap from CP Pistons it says do not file it and leave it at .0015" (That's the minimum) ( Pic below )

So in the end i'd be looking at
Upper ring .0022"
Middle ring .0024"
Oil ring .0015"

Another thing I'm questioning is, Those are the ring gaps i'd want at that 600whp+ range but, In the beginning i'm not going to have the turbo/fuel setup I want due to funds. But i'm building the motor for big boost because my goal is 600whp. Will it hurt to have them gapped for 600+whp but probably be running 400-500whp for awhile?

http://www.aa1car.com/library/ringendgap_wiseco.pdf

 

[Muckman]

Good research. Thats exactly what I would have told you here.

CP and Wiseco (And I think JE) all use the same NPR rings.

The bore X .007 and .0075 are what you want to use for that power level on pump gas.
If you are running Ethanol or less power than you can run a tighter gap (less heat = less ring expansion).

The ARP ring compressors are GREAT. They even work work Oringed blocks. I use the summit ring filer and stretch tool pictured in my build thread: http://www.clubintegra.com/board/showpost.php?p=1252977&postcount=118

If this is your first time filing rings order an extra ring pack or two. Trust me, you will F it up and you'll be stuck waiting a week to order 1 stupid ring.

And a warning - ALL the second rings are manufactured with a very loose gap out of the box. However none of the companies are smart enough to update their documentation to address this. The second ring gaps are intentionally loose to prevent flutter when exhaust gasses get trapped between the first and second rings. So expect the gaps will be larger than your calculated targets but dont freak out thats OK. Just make them all consisent and move one.

Running high hp (loose) ring gaps doesn't hurt anything if running NA. 99% of the time the engine isn't under full load either so the same conditions apply to high hp engines too. Obviously the point of the ring is to seal as much compression as possible but allow the rings to expand enough so they don't butt ends. Finding the perfect gap is something only professional race teams accomplish. The rest of us we run conservative gaps and the result is blow by. If you have a good crank case venting system then its not a problem.

And this is how I clock the ring gaps in the cylinder. Front of engine points to #1 not exhaust side.

 

[95B18BTurbo]

I agree on the ARP piston ring compressor for sure as I just used one on my last engine build. Worked beautifully! Also, to install the rings, just do it by hand without a spreader! It's easy to break the rings with a spreader. I also agree with everything Muckman has put out ring/gap wise!

 

[OneFastGSR]

Everything seems good so far, Except you got me confused on the last part where you said engine front is torwards #1 and not exhaust on that image. I'm assuming that means, 2nd compression ring would be facing the oil pump, oil rail top and bottom are facing the exhaust valves and so on?

 

[Muckman]

The only ring I ever broke was by hand so I use the spreader now. I think its easier to handle but its a personal preference.

"Front of engine" means timing belt side. Top ring gap should face the flywheel, second ring gap should face the tbelt.

 

[Nick_C78]

The only ring I ever broke was by hand so I use the spreader now. I think its easier to handle but its a personal preference.

"Front of engine" means timing belt side. Top ring gap should face the flywheel, second ring gap should face the tbelt.

Exactly. I am currently using Total Seal Piston Rings with a custom tension or lack of a better term "spring rate". Highly recommend Total Seal piston rings, but NPR is also a proven ring and pretty damn cheap. I followed Total Seals instructions when I did my rings this last time and it worked flawlessly and they are not far off from what Muckman has said. I can get you those instructions when I am back in Apple Valley wednesday, but Muckmans method will work just as well as it is very damn close.

 

[95B18BTurbo]

I just used Hastings rings on Mr.Gurley's motor and they worked great as well.

 

[OneFastGSR]

Anyways I had got a new set of CP rings, Upgraded CP wrist pins, With new CP wrist pins locks from real street performance, Should be in tomorrow morning. I just plastigauged my main bearings tonight. The first reading wasn't the best so I redid the plastigauge. (Plastigauge reads .0015, .0020, .0010, etc. So I use 2 different ones and put the numbers as close to what it looks like accordingly. Also I measured the plastigauge on the caps and on the crank. They're probably all the same, But I just did as before and wrote down what It looked like. These were all done with ACL Race standard GSR bearings. I have no idea how to convert these to figure out what OEM bearings would be the right fit. I am wanting .0015" on all but main bearing 3 which I want .0017". I'm about to do some research and maybe figure out how to convert to oem bearing colors/sizes but if anyone already knows and can help out let me know!
Also I know there's codes on the block/crank (letters/numbers?) To see what bearing colors should go there. (I'm not sure if It's the stock crank to that block though) but maybe it could help, Maybe not?

ACL Race bearings are all 2.007mm / .0790"

These are the clearences with acl's on my motor

#1 .0015"
#2 .0011"
#3 .0011"
#4 .0013"
#5 .0013"

Which bearing would I need in order to get these

#1 .0015"
#2 .0015"
#3 .0017"
#4 .0015"
#5 .0015"

Here's OEM bearing chart

Main Bearing thickness by color

Blue 2.013-2.010 mm 0.0793”- 0.0791”
Black 2.010-2.007 mm 0.0791”- 0.0790”
Brown 2.007-2.004 mm 0.0790”- 0.0789”
Green 2.004-2.001 mm 0.0789”- 0.0788”
Yellow 2.001-1.998 mm 0.0788”- 0.0787”
Pink 1.998-1.995 mm 0.0787”- 0.0785”
Red 1.995-1.992 mm 0.0785”- 0.0783”

What I can come up with is

#1 Brown
#2 Pink
#3 Pink or Red?
#4 Green
#5 Green

Anyone want to chime in?

Also I can't decide whether to stay pump 93 or go e85! If I got e85 I want to run smaller piston ring gaps because the e85 will run alot cooler, I'm looking at running .022" upper .024" lower .015" oil ring on 93 and about .019" upper .021" lower and .015" oil ring on e85. Can't decide though I'll be able to make alot more power with e85 and run cooler, And alot less chance of detonation.) E85 sounds like a win win, Especially since I have a e85 station right around the corner. Except i'll need a way bigger fuel system if I want to reach my goal of 600whp with e85 which will be alot of $

 

[Muckman]

ACL Standards are close to OEM green. I recommend ACL Race HX which will give you more oil clearance. But do a quick mock up and measure the rods first.

I forgot to tell you to use the bore diameter not the piston diameter for the calculation. So youre bore is actually 3.272" if you have .004 p2w. haha sorry for confusing you more. Just run .021" if you cant decide on fuel. It really doesn't make that much difference in the end. I don't even have any data to show you if one or two thousands difference in ring gap makes any difference in power.

 

[OneFastGSR]

Whenever I was talking to T1 about my transmission work I asked what they thought about my piston ring gap research and was told it was really solid, And the ring gaps are perfect If I run 93 or c16 but If I want to run E85 run .018" - .020" on upper ring and .020-.022 on lower ring. But he told me I need to choose what fuel i'm going to run and build the motor accordingly because E85 won't run near as well with the loose gaps as it will the closer gaps and vice versa. He also stated that I'm not going to reach my goal of 600whp with 93 and so It'd be better for me to go e85 if I can spend the money to get the bigger fuel setup. But the way I was told he made it sound like the small ring gap changes will affect the motor in many different ways and that's why I need to choose a fuel and build accordingly. As far as main bearings, I was really wanting to run OEM bearings that way I could get the clearences exactly what I wanted or as close as possible. The motor previously had ACL HX bearings in it originally though. So i'm sure those would work no problem for me if I wanted.

 

[Muckman]

On my last two motors 84.5mm and 84.9mm I ran .020" top ring gap on E85 and didnt have a problem at 600hp. And that was a bigger bore than yours. I was using the .006 multiplier so that would give you at gap of .0196". So just go with .019" then. E85 is a much better fuel to start with than to reach the limits of 93 octane and have to rebuild your fuel system, retune, waste money and time etc.

 

[OneFastGSR]

Yeah i'm thinking E85 is the way to go. So far these are my specs (That I want)

.019" upper ring
.021" lower ring
.015" Oil ring
.0040" p2w clearence
Piston rings placed the same positions as the diagram you posted above

.0020" all 5 rod bearings
.0015" 1 2 4 5 main bearings
.0017" 3 main bearing

Now then, I havn't plastigaued the rod bearings at all, I was waiting to install the new wrist pins and rings and put the pistons in for good. But based off the measurements I posted above I'm thinking the main bearings I need as far as oem coloring, Brown, pink, pink, yellow, yellow?

 

[Muckman]

Don't wait for the wrist pins and rings. You can use the pins that you have now. Just mock it up to get the rod bearing clearances now. You don't need to install the pin clips or rings to mock it up. Unless you want to wait weeks until you know if the rod bearings are good or not, then have to order new bearings again.

I'm fine with all those target specs. I'm warning you that the lower rings will be larger than .021 out of the box but that's OK. I don't think you can get your clearances loose enough with OEM bearings, especially on #2 and #3. That's why I'm recommending you go straight to the HX bearing. (if you still have the old HX bearings and they aren't F'd up you can measure with them)