g3teg97
Super Moderator
Unbelievable when their product costs so much more. Have you had to deal with Supertech for support in any way?
Muckman’s High Compression Super Build
Muckman
Not a M0derator
I wanted to show you guys this valve comparison before I move onto the short block updates. This is a comparison of Ferrea 5000 series valves to Supertech in regards to v2v clearance. The 5000 series is a low cost replacement steel valve that is very heavy. It doesn’t have all the features of the Ferrea competition and competition plus valves. Even the high end companies like Ferrea sell low cost budget parts. Same is true for every company actually.
By contrast Supertech who only sells 1 product line of valves. They do sell an Inconel exhaust valve but it’s the same valve otherwise. This is not a knock against Ferrea as their high end Competition product line is very nice. Alot people will want the name brand but buy the cheapest valves and get this sh!t. You need to know what you're buying and why.
When I was measuring my v2v clearances I tested the Ferrea 5000 valves. The 5000s are not rounded nice like the Competition or Supertech valves are. This design characteristic made the 5000 valves run .003" tighter valve to valve clearance. This is significant to lose this much clearance for zero gain.
This comparison was done with the Skunk2 Tuner 1 cams.
Ferrea 5000 bottom, Supertech top valves. Same size valves. Intakes 34mm (+1), exhaust 28mm. This shows you the size difference and how that significantly impacts v2v.
Partially open. This is at .030" v2v but valves not at closest point.
At TDC. This is .005" v2v with cams at 0/0. Would not be safe to run this.
Valves continue to kiss throughout cam rotation.
Here you can see how chunky the F5000 valves really are.
Compared to supertech valves, same diameter. Rounded edges increase clearance.
By contrast Supertech who only sells 1 product line of valves. They do sell an Inconel exhaust valve but it’s the same valve otherwise. This is not a knock against Ferrea as their high end Competition product line is very nice. Alot people will want the name brand but buy the cheapest valves and get this sh!t. You need to know what you're buying and why.
When I was measuring my v2v clearances I tested the Ferrea 5000 valves. The 5000s are not rounded nice like the Competition or Supertech valves are. This design characteristic made the 5000 valves run .003" tighter valve to valve clearance. This is significant to lose this much clearance for zero gain.
This comparison was done with the Skunk2 Tuner 1 cams.
Ferrea 5000 bottom, Supertech top valves. Same size valves. Intakes 34mm (+1), exhaust 28mm. This shows you the size difference and how that significantly impacts v2v.
Partially open. This is at .030" v2v but valves not at closest point.
At TDC. This is .005" v2v with cams at 0/0. Would not be safe to run this.
Valves continue to kiss throughout cam rotation.
Here you can see how chunky the F5000 valves really are.
Compared to supertech valves, same diameter. Rounded edges increase clearance.
95B18BTurbo
New Member
Nice work and I love all the technical aspects!
Muckman
Not a M0derator
Let me know when you get tuned Dennis. I want to be there.nice build maybe one day i will be able to do something like this
95B18BTurbo
New Member
Used a bit of the info in this thread for assembling a motor today. Thanks for the breakdown! I got the motor checked v2V wise and p2v wise. Plenty of clearance/adjustability with the cam gears, and a peace of mind for dialing it all in.
Muckman
Not a M0derator
Last year I ran an off the shelf Wiseco piston K594M845. This year I decided to go with custom Wiseco pistons because the higher compression OTS pistons are not designed for turbo (high HP)applications. They are lightened where strength is not needed for naturally aspirated apps. The bent wrist pin last year highlights the weaknesses. Custom pistons allowed us to reinforce the piston in all areas while running a big dome for higher compression.
-To keep things simple we started with the same dimensions as K594M845.
-Wiseco used their HD1 forging from the 4G63 product line.
-Same skirt profile as K594M845, strutted pin boss and cut side skirts on non thrust sides
-We went with 84.9mm (3.344”) diameter because it would allow me to hone again and give me another rebuild without moving up a bore size. Plus I can still use an 85mm ring pack.
-Dome volume went from 8.25cc to 8.20cc.
-We increased the dome thickness from .150” to .225”. K594M845 was as thin as .120” at the intake valve relief.
-We kept the valve reliefs the same, radius and depth.
-We discussed changing the pin offset from .030” to .020” to reduce thrust load. I was apprehensive about changing this because we planned to run a larger p2w clearance and this would make the pistons more noisy as well as allow the piston to tilt more possibly affecting p2h clearance therefore we kept it the same.
-My tuner wanted to cut a fire slot in the top of the dome to propagate flame travel. This was not possible without changing forgings as there was not enough material in the dome to cut and it would weaken the dome.
-We dropped the compression height from 1.181” to 1.176” to compensate for milling of the deck. 1.050” being the minimum compression height that still has maximum ring land thicknesses.
-We thickened the rings lands substantially. This makes the ring land area stronger and keeps heats away from the rings. Top ring went from .200” to .300”. Second ring went from .140” to .165”. Third is unchanged.
-We upgraded the wrist pin from S561, 5115 steel to S733, 9310 tool steel.
-Piston weight increased from 279g to 338g.
-Pin weight increased from 68g to 108g.
-As before I had the domes ceramic coated and the skirts come moly coated.
Here is the spec sheet for the custom pistons:
Here you can see the extra think ring lands, gas ports and lateral ring grooves.
Partial skirts
D battery wrist pin
Strutted pin boss and underside of dome.
This makes me laugh. S561 .138” tapered pin vs S733 .225" straight walled pin.
-To keep things simple we started with the same dimensions as K594M845.
-Wiseco used their HD1 forging from the 4G63 product line.
-Same skirt profile as K594M845, strutted pin boss and cut side skirts on non thrust sides
-We went with 84.9mm (3.344”) diameter because it would allow me to hone again and give me another rebuild without moving up a bore size. Plus I can still use an 85mm ring pack.
-Dome volume went from 8.25cc to 8.20cc.
-We increased the dome thickness from .150” to .225”. K594M845 was as thin as .120” at the intake valve relief.
-We kept the valve reliefs the same, radius and depth.
-We discussed changing the pin offset from .030” to .020” to reduce thrust load. I was apprehensive about changing this because we planned to run a larger p2w clearance and this would make the pistons more noisy as well as allow the piston to tilt more possibly affecting p2h clearance therefore we kept it the same.
-My tuner wanted to cut a fire slot in the top of the dome to propagate flame travel. This was not possible without changing forgings as there was not enough material in the dome to cut and it would weaken the dome.
-We dropped the compression height from 1.181” to 1.176” to compensate for milling of the deck. 1.050” being the minimum compression height that still has maximum ring land thicknesses.
-We thickened the rings lands substantially. This makes the ring land area stronger and keeps heats away from the rings. Top ring went from .200” to .300”. Second ring went from .140” to .165”. Third is unchanged.
-We upgraded the wrist pin from S561, 5115 steel to S733, 9310 tool steel.
-Piston weight increased from 279g to 338g.
-Pin weight increased from 68g to 108g.
-As before I had the domes ceramic coated and the skirts come moly coated.
Here is the spec sheet for the custom pistons:
Here you can see the extra think ring lands, gas ports and lateral ring grooves.
Partial skirts
D battery wrist pin
Strutted pin boss and underside of dome.
This makes me laugh. S561 .138” tapered pin vs S733 .225" straight walled pin.
95B18BTurbo
New Member
I clayed the motor like C-speed racing's write up. None of my valves squished the clay down with all the way up to +5 on the intake cam and -6 on the exhaust since the RS Machine PR3 pistons have nice reliefs, I used stock valves, and the cams aren't overly aggressive.