What to do with my 1990 ls

[bigbuddah]

I got a 1990 integra ls b18a1 stock motor for 300 bucks. Really cheap and i wanted to fix it up i didn't know what to do exactly i'm kinda young so i don't have much money but i can save lol. but i was reading some fourms about going ls/vtec or b20/vtec or w.e i read around i found a very intersting one some guy said stick to your b18a1 cause u get more torqe just building that motor and the hit 200hp+ more easy then the ls/vtec and plus ls/vtec dosn't get much torqe as a b18a1 (with out f/i) i wanted to do that so....i just added full 2.25 exhaust no cats no nothing with some greddy exhuast muffler and a cold air, and i strip the trunk about to do take out the seats, and i'm about to put on some cams this week i wanted some ideas what to do after i put in my cams. the guy with the b20 said he was running about 175 whp and 145 tq if i remember right with just here it is i found it lol :
Originally Posted by Eviloliv3
id like to see you explain why im an idiot, and then shoot down every one of your statements.

My reasons for keeping the LS:
1) simplicity
you can make good power from a LS, but everybody thinks its slow stock, so they dont touch it. everybody thinks VTEC is gods gift to Hondas. Granted, its what MADE Honda, but its still not that big of a deal. again, to the simplicity. he wont need to add wires to his car, buy another ECU, controllers etc. he can use all his stock components

2) sleeper
nobody expects anything out of a non vtec engine. Just like YOU. I am building a NON vtec B20 using all STOCK parts (except for cams, arp rod bolts and arp head studs) and i should be looking at around 175whp with 145ft lbs. again, a B16 will never get that high unless boosted. B16s have a hard enough time getting over 200 NA, ive seen more 1.8 LS motors get over 200 than B16s. plus when B16s get that high, they only have about 120-130 ft lbs, whereas the LS motors have a good 140-150.

3) Sound
who doesnt love the sound of a lopey ass cam at idle? i know i sure do

__________________________________________________________

i was also thing about taking out my a/c since it dosn't work anyway lol.... but p/s i'm kinda thinking hard about wondering how hard it be to drive lol

oh btw my teggy looks real ulgy but good for the price i brought it for, my hood is messed up bad cuz a truck backed into my car so yeah but everything runs well i'll hopfully post a pic soon don't laugh its a project car -_-"

 

[DA_Integra]

I'd say build the ls. I'm building the ls in my DA all motor but that's getting swapped into a crx when it's finished and a k20a going in the DA :evil:

 

[heykosal]

Nice find:thumbs up How come it seems everyone except me can find a decent car for only a couple hundred bucks?

Everytime I look all I can find are 87 Buicks and 95 Cavaliers!!!

Good luck with the build though be sure to keep us updated.

And I can't wait to hear that idle

 

[bigbuddah]

I'd say build the ls. I'm building the ls in my DA all motor but that's getting swapped into a crx when it's finished and a k20a going in the DA :evil:

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i heard its impossible to put a k20 in there or somthing lol
i was also wondering i have a lot of miles do ya think i can put a 50 or 75 shot on my car because my friend has a 20lb bottle that i might buy from him????

 

[tilegend]

I got a 1990 integra ls b18a1 stock motor for 300 bucks. Really cheap and i wanted to fix it up i didn't know what to do exactly i'm kinda young so i don't have much money but i can save lol. but i was reading some fourms about going ls/vtec or b20/vtec or w.e i read around i found a very intersting one some guy said stick to your b18a1 cause u get more torqe just building that motor and the hit 200hp+ more easy then the ls/vtec and plus ls/vtec dosn't get much torqe as a b18a1 (with out f/i) i wanted to do that so....i just added full 2.25 exhaust no cats no nothing with some greddy exhuast muffler and a cold air, and i strip the trunk about to do take out the seats, and i'm about to put on some cams this week i wanted some ideas what to do after i put in my cams. the guy with the b20 said he was running about 175 whp and 145 tq if i remember right with just here it is i found it lol :
Originally Posted by Eviloliv3
id like to see you explain why im an idiot, and then shoot down every one of your statements.

My reasons for keeping the LS:
1) simplicity
you can make good power from a LS, but everybody thinks its slow stock, so they dont touch it. everybody thinks VTEC is gods gift to Hondas. Granted, its what MADE Honda, but its still not that big of a deal. again, to the simplicity. he wont need to add wires to his car, buy another ECU, controllers etc. he can use all his stock components

2) sleeper
nobody expects anything out of a non vtec engine. Just like YOU. I am building a NON vtec B20 using all STOCK parts (except for cams, arp rod bolts and arp head studs) and i should be looking at around 175whp with 145ft lbs. again, a B16 will never get that high unless boosted. B16s have a hard enough time getting over 200 NA, ive seen more 1.8 LS motors get over 200 than B16s. plus when B16s get that high, they only have about 120-130 ft lbs, whereas the LS motors have a good 140-150.

3) Sound
who doesnt love the sound of a lopey ass cam at idle? i know i sure do

__________________________________________________________

i was also thing about taking out my a/c since it dosn't work anyway lol.... but p/s i'm kinda thinking hard about wondering how hard it be to drive lol

oh btw my teggy looks real ulgy but good for the price i brought it for, my hood is messed up bad cuz a truck backed into my car so yeah but everything runs well i'll hopfully post a pic soon don't laugh its a project car -_-"

don't believe everything you read...

do some more research and you'll find out how its not relatively easy to build a 200hp N/A LS...

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2176287

read that on King Motorsports build..

12.1:1 LS WITH JDM P73'S
BUSHED STOCK RODS WITH ARP BOLTS
PORTED B18A1 HEAD
CROWER 62404A CAMS
CROWER VALVETRAIN
SKUNK2 PRO SERIES INTAKE MANIFOLD
SKUNK2 PRO SERIES 68MM THROTTLE BODY
CUSTOM HEADER 1.75" TO 2" 4-2-1 2.5" COLLECTOR
2.75" ALUMINUM INTAKE PIPE 23" LONG
PUMP GAS 93 OCTANE
HONDATA S300
STOCK INJECTORS
WALBRO 255LPH FUEL PUMP

some very good info on that thread. as you can see its not cheap. and thats basically at 205. and i would say thats pretty high for an LS.

but to say an LS/VTEC has a harder time reaching 200hp vs an LS is just crazy. just research on what the LS/VTEC is all about and about how VTEC heads flow better than the non-vtec heads.

also... the whole purpose of ls/vtec is for the torque... you're still keeping the LS bottom end and mating it with a higher flow head w/ vtec.

also... why would you quotes someones reasons for keeping the LS? what are your reasons...

well anyhow to answer them...

1) you really have to be lazy to not be able to switch out ECUs and wire up what is needed

2) SIRII B16s come 170hp to the crank... so to say they cant touch that to the wheel is crazy also the B16 isnt the only vtec motor

granted if you build the LS non-vtec... it will be a nice little sleeper... im not sure about gas mileage but im pretty sure its gonna go downhill with the power goal you're looking at...


im not saying you shouldnt build your LS.. but there are limitations that you must realize where the vtec really shines vs the non-vtecs engines.

anyhow the LS build should still be fun.

 

[BrokenTalon27]

^^^Well said.

 

[bigbuddah]

don't believe everything you read...

do some more research and you'll find out how its not relatively easy to build a 200hp N/A LS...

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2176287

read that on King Motorsports build..

12.1:1 LS WITH JDM P73'S
BUSHED STOCK RODS WITH ARP BOLTS
PORTED B18A1 HEAD
CROWER 62404A CAMS
CROWER VALVETRAIN
SKUNK2 PRO SERIES INTAKE MANIFOLD
SKUNK2 PRO SERIES 68MM THROTTLE BODY
CUSTOM HEADER 1.75" TO 2" 4-2-1 2.5" COLLECTOR
2.75" ALUMINUM INTAKE PIPE 23" LONG
PUMP GAS 93 OCTANE
HONDATA S300
STOCK INJECTORS
WALBRO 255LPH FUEL PUMP

some very good info on that thread. as you can see its not cheap. and thats basically at 205. and i would say thats pretty high for an LS.

but to say an LS/VTEC has a harder time reaching 200hp vs an LS is just crazy. just research on what the LS/VTEC is all about and about how VTEC heads flow better than the non-vtec heads.

also... the whole purpose of ls/vtec is for the torque... you're still keeping the LS bottom end and mating it with a higher flow head w/ vtec.

also... why would you quotes someones reasons for keeping the LS? what are your reasons...

well anyhow to answer them...

1) you really have to be lazy to not be able to switch out ECUs and wire up what is needed

2) SIRII B16s come 170hp to the crank... so to say they cant touch that to the wheel is crazy also the B16 isnt the only vtec motor

granted if you build the LS non-vtec... it will be a nice little sleeper... im not sure about gas mileage but im pretty sure its gonna go downhill with the power goal you're looking at...


im not saying you shouldnt build your LS.. but there are limitations that you must realize where the vtec really shines vs the non-vtecs engines.

anyhow the LS build should still be fun.

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mine just cause of money reasons i also read this quote i know some about cars but i guess not enough lol
well the b20 guy is pushing 175whp so that means around 205 or 215 to the crank with his little mods
but here is another quote kinda keeps me wondering lol

b18_sol 12-04-2007 08:56 PM

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i know this might be old but i found it in a search and thought it was funny first i would like to say that Eviloliv3 is right keep the LS.......and befor you start going and calling people idiots do some research. Try google maybe....ok since you called him an idiot do you even know what vtec actually does.....when your vtec kicks in its opening the valves a little higher...which is more air...causing the combustion burst to be greater.......if you did some reseach you would know that you can add high lift valves and i nice set of dual valve springs and some good cams and your combustion will be greater than the b16, which will give you more power.

and as far as it goes for me i run a ls with ferra valves and skunk2 dual valves spring and skunk2 cams.....and i have riden in gsr/b16/ ls/vtec......and there is more lag in vtec than there is in boost...who wants to wait til 4500rpm's and above to reach power

and as far as the b16 the only thing it will see is the ass end of the car that has the ls with head work and if i was driving that car with the ls i would have a rear window decal that says "FUCK VTEC" so vtec drives like you will get butthurt............and i do drive a built ls in a del sol

so yes keep the ls build it and throw you a little snail on there at about 7psi you can build the ls for less than what a b16 swap will cost you


and as for Einstein people that usally call people out and use the name calling (idiot) ect. are the one that really lack the knowledge

by the way im ASE certified so you can call me an idiot but remember the next time you take your car to the shop i could be the one you called an idiot

 

[tilegend]

well take what he said with a grain of salt because skunk2 doesnt make non-vtec cams..

there goes his credibility out the window.

and if he really believes that all a vtec-head is.. is a head with higher lift at vtec x-over then he's sadly mistaken. ask any reputable head porter how much a vtec head flows better than non-vtec b18/b20 head stock...

also VTEC engines come mated with a shorter geared tranny... so to say you have to wait till 4500rpms to feel power... idk.

now the only non-vtec head that actually flows close if not the same as the vtec heads is the B20 P8R head. but its rare and hard to find... valves are larger so it maybe harder to source parts....

btw i believe pep-boys mechanics are ASE certified.

BTW im curious... wheres the guy that you're saying is making 175whp on a B20? do you have a link to his build thread?

heres another interesting read for you... with a dyno chart.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1352199

theres already a whole bunch probably thousands of thread on vtec vs non-vtec so im not going to argue about that... it really comes down to what you want... but you also have to be realistic about your goals. and not every engine is the same. shit theres a video on youtube of this guy with an LS with brian crower stage 2 cams i/h/e/ intake manifold... etc thats making 175whp

so alot of things come into play... just cause someone else is making those numbers you shouldn't expect the same exact thing... especially when its not stock cause the build means everything.

 

[bigbuddah]

well take what he said with a grain of salt because skunk2 doesnt make non-vtec cams..

there goes his credibility out the window.

and if he really believes that all a vtec-head is.. is a head with higher lift at vtec x-over then he's sadly mistaken. ask any reputable head porter how much a vtec head flows better than non-vtec b18/b20 head stock...

also VTEC engines come mated with a shorter geared tranny... so to say you have to wait till 4500rpms to feel power... idk.

now the only non-vtec head that actually flows close if not the same as the vtec heads is the B20 P8R head. but its rare and hard to find... valves are larger so it maybe harder to source parts....

btw i believe pep-boys mechanics are ASE certified.

BTW im curious... wheres the guy that you're saying is making 175whp on a B20? do you have a link to his build thread?

heres another interesting read for you... with a dyno chart.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1352199

theres already a whole bunch probably thousands of thread on vtec vs non-vtec so im not going to argue about that... it really comes down to what you want... but you also have to be realistic about your goals. and not every engine is the same. shit theres a video on youtube of this guy with an LS with brian crower stage 2 cams i/h/e/ intake manifold... etc thats making 175whp

so alot of things come into play... just cause someone else is making those numbers you shouldn't expect the same exact thing... especially when its not stock cause the build means everything.

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thats true hmmm i just need help some give me some steps on what to do i need a listing lol
this is all i got so far what bolt on ya think i should get next:
i got:
Headers full exhaust no cat 2.25 all the way out the back
cold air
cam gear(not installed yet)

i also had another question if i don't adjust the cam gears would i still get some power out of it?

 

[tilegend]

granted most people get the cam gears and set them to 0,0 (stock setting) just for the looks anyways.

i wouldn't adjust cam gears unless you know what you're doing and you'll definitely need to be on a dyno to actually see any performance gains.. otherwise its just plain old butt dyno.

they advertise as lighter than stock but im not sure if you're going to feel a whopping power difference... if any.

i would just save the cam gears for when you do cams... if you choose to.
for ones that don't need valvetrain upgrade (springs & retainers) crower 402s or crane stage 2s

if you're okay with spending extra money on valve springs you can get crower 403s or the brian crower stage 2s

some people run the 403s without valvetrain upgrades but its up to you...

btw what headers do you have and when you're saying no cat... are you running a test pipe or did you gut the cat?


some more build info on a b20 non-vtec
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2292041


also to answer your original post about removing power steering... it does take some work turning the wheel... especially if all you did was remove the belt but what some people do and what i have done is take out the springs inside the power steering valve body on the rack and lope the lines and it gets noticeably lighter but still stiffer compared to one with power steering... sometimes i wish i had it for driving around the city but i've gotten so use to not having it anymore i dont really care.

 

[bigbuddah]

granted most people get the cam gears and set them to 0,0 (stock setting) just for the looks anyways.

i wouldn't adjust cam gears unless you know what you're doing and you'll definitely need to be on a dyno to actually see any performance gains.. otherwise its just plain old butt dyno.

they advertise as lighter than stock but im not sure if you're going to feel a whopping power difference... if any.

i would just save the cam gears for when you do cams... if you choose to.
for ones that don't need valvetrain upgrade (springs & retainers) crower 402s or crane stage 2s

if you're okay with spending extra money on valve springs you can get crower 403s or the brian crower stage 2s

some people run the 403s without valvetrain upgrades but its up to you...

btw what headers do you have and when you're saying no cat... are you running a test pipe or did you gut the cat?


some more build info on a b20 non-vtec
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2292041


also to answer your original post about removing power steering... it does take some work turning the wheel... especially if all you did was remove the belt but what some people do and what i have done is take out the springs inside the power steering valve body on the rack and lope the lines and it gets noticeably lighter but still stiffer compared to one with power steering... sometimes i wish i had it for driving around the city but i've gotten so use to not having it anymore i dont really care.

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hmm i'll look up into the 402s i might as well cuz i'm still lost in what i'm doing so yeah
i got some gay headers from ebay lol just for now till i find a better job but i just took out the whole exhaust out and installed the headers then from the header is a straight 2.25 pipe till the exhaust muffler is a 2.25 in and a 4" out lol
i'll tell u something i'm not passing the test pollution next year haha

Yeah i get for now i'll remove the a/c since it dosn't work anyways lol
and the power steering i need some muscle in my arms anyways
then buy the 402s

but what do ya think i needa get first or is this good so far?

 

[tilegend]

---------------------------------------------
hmm i'll look up into the 402s i might as well cuz i'm still lost in what i'm doing so yeah
i got some gay headers from ebay lol just for now till i find a better job but i just took out the whole exhaust out and installed the headers then from the header is a straight 2.25 pipe till the exhaust muffler is a 2.25 in and a 4" out lol
i'll tell u something i'm not passing the test pollution next year haha

Yeah i get for now i'll remove the a/c since it dosn't work anyways lol
and the power steering i need some muscle in my arms anyways
then buy the 402s

but what do ya think i needa get first or is this good so far?

i think what you have is good so far. you covered the main components of bolt on upgrades. intake/headers/exhaust.

the only thing you could do is maybe upgrade to better headers or if you exhaust isnt already mandrel bent then try that.

also with the crowers... 403s are the same price as 402s. unless you get them secondhand where 402s arent really worth as much as 403s. i was debating whether or not to get the 403s or the 402s because of the valvetrain upgrade... also because i was just going to swap in something else later on, i just didnt know what... so im in the same boat as you... but wanted a nice daily driver for the time being.

so its really up to you if you want to spend the extra cash on valvetrain upgrades.

 

[Mister_Perkins]

running a 2.5" exhaust with no cat or anything is bad for your car. it has no back pressure, I'de at least put a high flow cat on it. your going to screw up ur engine.

 

[tilegend]

running a 2.5" exhaust with no cat or anything is bad for your car. it has no back pressure, I'de at least put a high flow cat on it. your going to screw up ur engine.

he clearly stated hes running a 2.25 setup

and please elaborate on "screwing up your engine"

Myth 3: I Need A Little Bit of Backpressure For Midrange Power

THE MIGHTY BACKPRESSURE MYTH:

You want zero backpressure not some backpressure as you may sometimes hear from a salesman or an old timer V8 hot rodder.

Stock backpressure is around 16 psi in a GSR. Good aftermarket exhausts yield 2-5 psi backpressure. "Bolt-ons only" engine packages, in the past, used exhausts with some backpressure, since there is this incorrect belief that having a little backpressure prevents the fresh air/fuel from shooting into the header at cam overlap (when both the opening intake valve & the closing exhaust valve are simultaneously, partially open). The backpressure supposedly "pushed" the fresh air/fuel back into the combustion chamber rather than having it go into the header. This shooting of fresh air/fuel from the intake manifold and intake port into the header cannot happen at cam overlap, since the pressure inside the header is already much higher than on the intake side , even when there is zero backpressure.

In reality, having more backpressure reduces the difference between the higher pressure in the head's exhaust port and lower pressure in the header and cat. You need this difference in pressure going from the head to the exhaust system or "pressure gradient" to keep the exhaust flow speed or energy at a high level. Having some backpressure during cam overlap and the exhaust stroke means that the exhaust gas must now push against something and therefore, this backwards force slows exhaust gas down.


This need for backpressure no longer exists when you have a properly tuned (timed) engine and a good stepped header. In fact, increased backpressure may lead to backwards flow or "reversion", where the exhaust gas travels backwards into the combustion chamber and dilutes the fresh intake charge at cam overlap. At the very least, it slows exhaust flow velocity or energy and prevents the creation of a vacuum for scavenging.

So please ignore the obsolete "you should have at least some backpressure" sales pitch. It's all about the creating high exhaust flow velocity/speed or energy leaving the exhaust port, in order for the header-cat-exhaust SYSTEM to do it's job properly (i.e. remove all the burnt exhaust gases and help pull in fresh intake charge by scavenging at cam overlap) and make power for you.

Regarding the backpressure issue:

Many people use backpressure to get midrange driveability at the sacrifice of lower power potential at the upper powerband rpms. Using back pressure is the wrong way to build a high performance exhaust system. The exhaust system should extract the exhaust from the header, to minimize parasitic pumping pressures.

The proper way to make an exhaust system that will act as an extractor is to properly size the tubing so that the the exhaust gas' flow velocity creates a "vacuum" behind the header.

Also, you have to realize that making a sytem which provides the best performance at all throttle positions and all powerband rpm ranges is next to impossible. There's always going to be a compromise and giving up some optimal power potential in one area of the rpm range.

You must tune the exhaust size/length for the throttle positions and rpm ranges where you want the most performance knowing that you'll sacrifice performance at the other end of the rpm range.

 

[Kuchtaboy]

running a 2.5" exhaust with no cat or anything is bad for your car. it has no back pressure, I'de at least put a high flow cat on it. your going to screw up ur engine.

since when?