Let me go back and properly quote and address everything I have missed or just poorly responded to. I'm actually on a computer now and can actually see what I type. It's difficult to type out replies and quotes when I have to scroll three times to get to the end of a sentence.
you can't make blanket statements like that. do you know how hard it is to get to 180whp with a gsr or any non k-series engine from honda? and any gsr that is at my whp level with similar mods would have problems touching my tq curve. and the initial cost for either motor is considerably more expensive than an ls block.now should you throw away your gsr for an lsvtec? no. it's not cost effective. but if you're goal is to build a motor from the ground up and you already have an ls block there is no need to spend 2500K+ for a 142whp gsr engine
If we're using the term blanket statement, we might also throw in that this "blanket statement" is an opinion.
o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/
Noun:
1. A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
I don't actually
have to have cold hard facts as to
why I believe something, hell- that's what makes an opinion what it is. However, an opinion is not simply wrong or right just because
you say it is. I justified my comment with my reasoning and I will continue to do so. If you think that an LS/V is superior in any way, why would you not want to give up your GSR bottom end for an LS one? Is it because the lower compression makes for a less powerful engine?
that doesn't make it a stock engine lol... is a mini-me swap stock? no it's not. not to mention there are 3 heads with 3 different results.
i said no such thing as a stock lsvtec engine. the head in question was stock..... an lsvtec is not stock since lsvtec never came factory. the head is set to factory specs. the fact that there are 3 different variants of lsvtec and that it never came from the factory as a real motor then there is no such thing as a "stock ls vtec"
I even broke it down for you and you continue to ignore what I said, you shouldn't take things so literally. I told you what I meant by a stock "LS/V" and you continue blabbering on about it.. I think that you're taking this whole "half-assed" thing really personally. :roll:
superior is relative. the ls has more stroke and more displacement which is a great base to start off on add a vtec head and you get your power sooner with less revs required
More displacement by .1, in my opinion it's not enough to make a difference.
1. no s*** it's no secret more displacement isn't as effective without a better flowing head...that's why they do ls vtec hahahahhaha. I didn't know you had to set cams up for your bottom end... please explain to us how the ls bottom end can't handle gsr cams. i've gotta hear this one.
I never said it couldn't "handle" it, did I?? I didn't mean to if I did, simply that it's not SET UP for it.
2. it's not rocket science that a vtec head out performs a non-vtec head. that's the point of lsvtec. put the bigger displacement longer stroke with the free flowing head.
And
losing power in the process because of the lower compression. The only reason I would run a lower compression is to boost the crap out of it, and even then it's pretty useless because now days with a good tuner you can boost higher compression and avoid melting a piston. There's not enough displacement in a Honda motor to make power simply from that- hence revving to nine grand. Do you see any V8's that rev to 10k? VERY SELDOM. Why? Because they have five times the displacement of a Honda and don't need it. I mean serious displacement, not ".1"...
3. you have very little knowledge of what you're talking about. how old are you 19? what engine are you running?
No sonny, i'm not nineteen. I don't live with my parents, and I don't simply have I/H/E. Not that age should be any factor here. (I'm not even sure why it would be.) My previous motor I rebuilt a B18b1 that made 261hp on 10psi. I've since pulled that motor to drop in a friend's CRX. The shell is most likely going to be parted until I find a better candidate for the new motor. My current motor (on the engine stand) is a B18c1. Benson Sleeves, Manley Rods and CP Pistons running 10:1 compression. ARP head studs. ACL Bearings. The head has had a port job done as well as crower valvetrain. Freshly rebuilt Garret T3/T4 57 trim ready to bolt on. Machining done at D&G Performance.. Yadda yadda.. forgetting quite a bit..
it's outdated. according to that info b16's are better than b18c5's because of their rod/stroke ratio. LMAO.... that's like the old hp/liter argument actually meaning anything.
It never said that, but then again you're not good at reading. It simply states that the B16 has a better R/S and that he would prefer a B16 over a LS/V. I don't think I read anywhere in there saying "The b16 is a better motor than the B18c5" simply that it has the best R/S.
jeff evans website defuses 90% of the info on that page with half of the builds he does.
Defuses that info, how? Because there are LS/V's making serious power with some serious cash put into them? The point is again moot- we're not talking fully built motors with thousands sunk into them. I'm speaking of stock versus stock here. There's no doubt that you could make any motor make some serious power. But the cash put into them to make them reliable and powerful isn't worth it in my opinion. Hell, you have to sink what- a grand into a "kit" to make an LS/V reliable in the first place? (I could be off on that price, I haven't looked into LS/V kits.)
why don't you read the article more carefully, you don't even know what you're reading. do you understand that the point of building your motor isn't just hp but power under the curve. hondas are incredibly slow for the hp they produce. why do you think hondas use such obnoxiously close trannies? it's called tq multiplication because they make s*** for tq across the board. that's why i have an ls trans with b16 3rd, 4th, and 5th and a type r final drive. they have to make up for their lack of tq someway or another.
An an LS bottom end isn't going to make up for that. Incredibly slow for the HP they produce? In my experience they're a lot faster then a few other things. Power to weight ratio is a big player in that one. Not only is weight a huge factor, but so is gearing as you stated. But then again, why are we getting into this? We're speaking of LS/V's and any torque gains from an LS bottom end is purely insignificant in the matter. (In my opinion.)
the main reason you don't see 600np non-vtec engines is because their head flow is s***. even a worked non-vtec head will not outflow a stock vtec head. it's all about the cfm. not their rocker arms. you throw rocker arms with revs not hp.
I said one of the many reasons. I never said it was the the main reason. And believe me, a ported non vtec head can flow enough to make the power. It will probably never outflow it's vtec counterpart, but it can be done. We already talked about this. Revving is part of a Honda, they have no displacement and make their power through revs. Put a 5k RPM rev limit on a Honda motor and see how much power you get out of it. The idea that you don't have to rev a Honda high to make that kind of power is a little absurd in my mind. I have yet to see a Honda make real power below 5k.
there is no debate. you talking out of your butt and haven't provided any proof to back anything up that you have said. you simply refuse to listen. i give you facts and examples from real life experiences and other sources. other members have even chimed in yet you live in your delusional bubble and proceed to spread mis-information
Just because you disagree does not mean I am spreading misinformation or talking out of my butt. Sorry to burst your bubble..
they make the same hp if not more than a gsr with more tq with stock parts. how is that half-assed? a gsr in stock form is also half-assed then.
And where are you getting THAT information? You keep showing me built motors making more power. Lets throw up a stock ls bottom end with a stock C1 head slapped on. They don't make as much as horsepower.
142-145whp in pristine condition and 110wtq? yeah that sounds impressive and they only cost $2500
I could get a complete swap for $2500, transmission axles, ecu and everything for less then that. Where the f*** are you buying $2500 GSR's from? Hell, surf Craigslist and there's numerous GSR's on there for less. I bought my complete GSR for $500. (Minus a wiring harness, distributor and injectors.)
stock head from one motor and stock bottom from another motor doesn't make the motor stock.
No, but when I say "stock ls/v" I am referring to a stock bottom end, with a stock vtec head. Okay? DO YOU UNDERSTAND?? Do I need to repeat it for the tenth time? Sorry if my terminology is off!! bear with me you f***ing prick. -_-
No my argument is you can't make blanket statements because of your own ignorance and lack of experience. saying that a said motor is half-assed when it's been proven time and time again otherwise.
I've already addressed my position on the whole blanket statement arguement. Again, it is my personal opinion.. re-read that a few times, because as much as you're saying "You're dumb, blah blah blah." You seem to misread or ignore quite a few things I have said.
and my remark was in reference to you saying that an lsvtec will never be on par with gsr in terms of using stock parts for initial power or aftermarket parts for potential higher hp. which is a ludicrous statement because they can use the same parts.
No, they can't. You cannot put LS parts in a GSR and say they are stock GSR parts. It doesn't work like that. The statement isn't ludicrous if you read it correctly.
their bottom ends weren't setup to make HP? lol you've gotta be kidding me. they have the same hp limitations from the factory as a gsr. LMAO are you kidding me? a stock gsr and a stock ls both hit the limit of reliability around 300whp. who told you that it wasn't setup for hp. the only weak point they have is the rod bolts which isn't an issues until you start wanting to consistantly hit 8K+rpms.
I never said anything about horsepower limits, quit pulling this crap out of thin air. You need to read what I type, and then read it again, and then once more to be sure. I swear it's like you're twelve. You see one word and you just draw conclusions as to what that word could have been leading to...
As I stated somewhere, at some point during this whole jumble of nonsense- the lower compression of an LS block won't make the same power as say a full GSR. The .1 displacement is not enough to make up for the lower compression.. as you could tell if you pull up a LS/V that has not been BUILT.
any build will not make the desired power if not built properly.
An LS V consisting of a stock LS bottom end and a stock vtec head will not make as much power as a full vtec motor. That's the point. No need to bring up dyno sheets of motors with cams, pistons, port jobs, ect ECT, because that's not the point i'm addressing.
ummm none of our engines were meant to have upgraded parts from the factory hence why that statement is just retarded. then again this is coming from the guy that thinks all vtec heads are the same.
Never said that. Just that they were all superior then a non v, and that the full version is better then the unmodified LS/V variants. Should have expected that from the guy who can't read..
it's evident you've never actually modified an engine before or been around quality builds. and you just contradicted yourself yet again.
The above mentioned motors don't count I assume.. :roll: I do a helluva lot more then tinker with Honda's.
and how does more stroke and more displacement which means more volumetric capacity with the same head flow equate to less power ? engine is an air pump. more air equals more what? i'll let you think about it.
WHOA! More air in and more air out means more power? You sir are a genius! The first modfication most people do are generally intakes and exhausts, for JUST that reason. I think any kid with a set of car keys can tell you that much. This is the basis of everything we do to make power. That's where compression comes into play, you can have the same airflow yet produce better power with compression because the mixture will burn better. Now this isn't the only thing involved obviously, but I don't think I need to explain how combustion engines work to you.. do I....? "I'll let you think about it."
I've spent entirely too long typing this.. My friend pointed out to me that this has gone on quite a bit longer than it should have. I think at some point we're just going to have to
agree to disagree, because I doubt i'm convincing you and I know you're not convincing me. But in the case that you won't agree to disagree.. well i'll see you tomorrow for what i'm sure to be an educational and mature argument. :roll:
