timing question

[genesis]

hey so yesterday i advanced my timing to 17 deg. and now it pulls alot harder is this ok for the engine, also at around 4500 rpm it sounds like im hitting vtec, is that just the butterflyvalves in the intake manifold? because it is kicking in hard(huge diffrence in sound and power at 4500) i just want to know if this is normal, im a little new around this area and dont want to hurt my engine.

 

[TegSox]

Check out THIS excellent article on ignition timing, its benefits and detriments.

VTEC does activate in the 4500 rpm area (typically 4400), that must be what your hearing. The IM butterflies open at 5700 rpm's. I'm assuming you have a GSR?

 

[genesis]

Check out THIS excellent article on ignition timing, its benefits and detriments.

VTEC does activate in the 4500 rpm area (typically 4400), that must be what your hearing. The IM butterflies open at 5700 rpm's. I'm assuming you have a GSR?

are you sure v-tec is at 4400 i always thought it was at 5700?

 

[Spody02]

no on a gsr vtec kicks in at 4400 and the secondary open up around 5700
on type r i think its just one at like 5700

 

[TegSox]

VTEC activates at 4400 in a GSR, give or take 200 rpm's depending on engine conditions. You can't hear VTEC activate on a totally stock GSR.
Only GSR's have a dual stage intake manifold, that's what you hear at 5700, the second stage opening up.
VTEC in an ITR activates at 5700 rpm's.
ITR manifolds are single stage, so no butterflies.

 

[genesis]

so if i got a type-r manifold or a blox one would it make it alot better? as in performance, would you be able to feel a diffrence in power.

 

[Aussie]

A type r style manifold will give you better top end because of the shorter runners.

I guess you mean you advanced your ignition timing 17 degrees. Hopefully not your cam timing.

 

[genesis]

no hahahah ignition is that ok or to much? im freaking out for some reason about it lol

 

[Aussie]

Well I don't see why you would need to advance it, isn't your car basically stock.

The general rule for an N/A application is too advance the ignition timing till your at your maximum horsepower and then retard it to the point where you just start to lose horsepower, usually around 1hp. But this can really only be done on a dyno with proper software. If you advance your timing too much you can cause knocking/detonation and ruin your motor.

 

[genesis]

Well I don't see why you would need to advance it, isn't your car basically stock.

The general rule for an N/A application is too advance the ignition timing till your at your maximum horsepower and then retard it to the point where you just start to lose horsepower, usually around 1hp. But this can really only be done on a dyno with proper software. If you advance your timing too much you can cause knocking/detonation and ruin your motor.

:shock:

 

[patrick4588]

i always put my n/a gsr at 18* ( ya know years ago before i got a turbo ). you have a knock sensor, it will retard the timing in the computer if you put it too far. i would actually bump it up another degree if i were you. stock is at 16*.

 

[TegSox]

From the article no one cared to read apparently:

"...you advance a little and make more power but as you go more and more advance on the timing, you will reach a point when the hp gains come at a cost: the piston, rods, and rod bearings wear out faster because of the added work you ask them to do when you shift the start of the combustion event earlier and you have a higher and higher risk of detonation.

If you go too far on the advance, KABOOM!!!

This is why we advise you to advance until you hear knocking at idle and then retard back 2 degrees for safety. You set your ignition timing at the highest advance that is safe. You balance between higher cylinder pressures, having the peak pressure happening at a good rod to crank angle, and minimising your detonation risk. For most Hondas at stock compression ratio, this best start of the spark timing is around 18 degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center). Although the power gains sound tempting, don't advance too far."

You can continue to advance spark and gain power, but you'll be severly shortening the life of your engine.

The general rule for an N/A application is too advance the ignition timing till your at your maximum horsepower and then retard it to the point where you just start to lose horsepower, usually around 1hp.

This sounds more like the rules for adjusting cam gears. This isn't a guideline for how I would go about advance ignition timing.

 

[Aussie]

i always put my n/a gsr at 18* ( ya know years ago before i got a turbo ). you have a knock sensor, it will retard the timing in the computer if you put it too far. i would actually bump it up another degree if i were you. stock is at 16*.

You NEVER trust the knock sensor to retard timing.

From the article no one cared to read apparently:

"...you advance a little and make more power but as you go more and more advance on the timing, you will reach a point when the hp gains come at a cost: the piston, rods, and rod bearings wear out faster because of the added work you ask them to do when you shift the start of the combustion event earlier and you have a higher and higher risk of detonation.

If you go too far on the advance, KABOOM!!!

This is why we advise you to advance until you hear knocking at idle and then retard back 2 degrees for safety. You set your ignition timing at the highest advance that is safe. You balance between higher cylinder pressures, having the peak pressure happening at a good rod to crank angle, and minimising your detonation risk. For most Hondas at stock compression ratio, this best start of the spark timing is around 18 degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center). Although the power gains sound tempting, don't advance too far."

You can continue to advance spark and gain power, but you'll be severly shortening the life of your engine.



This sounds more like the rules for adjusting cam gears. This isn't a guideline for how I would go about advance ignition timing.

No that is the general rule of thumb for an N/A application on ignition timing, I would never do that with cams, you keep advancing your cam gears and you'll have a valve through a piston. I stated this because most of the time an N/A motor will not knock when you hit peak power, it will be far above this point, that is why I stated to hit peak and retard till you lose 1hp. Most tuners I've dealt with do things this same way.

What you are talking about above is the general rule for most other applications This will come into play with turbo applications but with a turbo motor you never want to let the motor knock, all it takes is one second and the motor can be thrashed.

 

[patrick4588]

amongst all the arguing and bickering.... back to the original question.... your fine and safe at 17*.